Bad experience with tado installation
So, we purchased around 10 months ago an all singing and dancing V3 Tado system to control our heating as recommended by our installer. We knew we were planning on putting in an underfloor system at a later date but was assured it was future proofed and underfloor works with it.
Skip forward 10 months and underfloor is installed. We have spent two weeks trying to get it to work going to and from with Technical. Summary:
- there is no separate system for underfloor with a combi boiler it has to go into the hot water option
- but you can only turn hot water on or off you can't control it through a separate wireless thermostat
- however, it you have a wireless thermostat, it controls both radiators and hot water so to turn off the radiators you have to turn off both the radiators and hot water, wait for them to disconnect and then turn back on the hot water.
- If the room gets too warm for the underfloor - tough. You can only turn it on or off manually with no automatic control.
The answer to this from Tado? Having paid £300 to have the all singing and dancing system thats less than 10 months old? You need to purchase a new system the new all singing and dancing Tado X system where you can do this - which is not compatible whatsoever with Tado V3- that involves two bridges and two thermostats at a cost price of ….. £330.
Comments
-
Sorry you've experienced issues but from reading your email, it sounds like your installer isn't fully aware of how tado can work
I see no reason why the UFH couldn't have been zoned off and managed through a separate wired thermostat. You would probably have needed some plumbing changes and needed to purchase a wireless receiver to manage the rest of your heating but it seems like it would be completely doable.
Not sure why Tado support couldn't help but perhaps if it was your installer working with them, the messages weren't clear
1 -
@Bircho Hi. One of the good things about volunteering on this forum is helping others work through obstacles which seem, at first, insurmountable. Know you are irritated, but this forum has some really good, experienced people who do help - and we arent employed by Tado, we just help.
When moving into my current home, I had to rig up a Tado V3+ swiftly into place. Shortly afterwards, we had to install underfloor heating, with a UFH manifold and five specific thermostatically controlled rooms.
- We added a zone valve on the central heating side, dedicated to the underfloor heating, and with the UFH manifold was included a differential pressure pump, a blending valve, a wiring centre and UFH loops individually controlled by thermostats.
- We then fitted wired Tado thermostats to control those individual loops - one for each room.
- This meant that as the central heating flow left the boiler it faced two valves
- one which handled the radiator circuit- which had a dedicated pump
- the other handled the underfloor heating
- It took a bit of thinking and careful planning but it worked.
Now there are complications if your boiler happens to run with Opentherm or another digital control- but am genuinely surprised at what happened in your home.
Am confused though. You refer to the hot water option, then the fact that you have to turn off the hot water
- Do you mean the hot water that goes to the taps, or the Central Heating supply loop?
- Are you saying that the underfloor heating will not produce enough heat unless you stop the boiler producing hot water at the taps? This would suggest one of three things:
- Either your boiler does not produce enough thermal output to feed an underfloor system,
- Or your underfloor manifold was not configured right, with the right pressure setting on the pump and right blended valve temperature in the manifold.
- And/or the thermostats which fire the UFH loops are not properly incorporated into the Tado controls.
- Did the UFH installers add a zone valve for the UFH, seperating it from the radiator loop? Did they add Tado wired thermostats to control that UFH manifold or is it controlled by some other product line?
- Did the installers give you written proof that the change caused by UFH being engaged would not overtax the CH output channels of the boiler - ie did they present you with the calculations?
- What then caused you to think that Tado X would instead solve this problem? I really dont see the reasoning yet.
I know this isnt funny. It is serious. Do come back. Will help where we can.
0 -
I have UFH controlled by Tado and working fine.
Sounds like the problem here is that your installer didnt install it in the correct way - not a Tado issue (or any other 3rd party for that matter)
1 -
Thanks for the responses guys. I will try to explain the set up a bit more.
First of all though, we deliberately did not want any wired thermostats. Using the wireless one was one of the main reasons for purchasing Tado in the first place (my mrs has proper OCD to wires!!)
Our house is fairly large. We used to have something like 14 radiators throughout it which are running off an Ideal Combi Boiler. We have undergone a major downstairs renovation which involved taking out all but two of the downstairs radiators and replacing them with underfloor heating. Ideally we would have done this all at the same time but at the start of this year, the old combi that was inplace decided it had had enough so we had to replace it which we did with the Ideal.
We ran all the radiators off the one thermostat and we were fine with that. Other than having to move the bridge (they never tell you that bit and provide you with the shortest wires ever but thats a different story around how to connect the bridge through a web network using the ethernet) we had no issues.
So now we have two basic areas, the Radiators which are 9 in total, and the Underfloor.
The person who installed the underfloor is different to that who installed the boiler.
When we had the boiler installed we asked the question at the time that if we were to have underfloor heating installed later would it work ok with the system that we had and we were told - by Tado - all we would need is an additional wireless thermostat and it would be zoned.
So roll on 10 months and we had the underfloor installed. I will summerise what is lots of correspondence between the installer, myself and Tado technical support. When I say Hot Water below I mean the underfloor heating.
The installer spoke with Tado technical as he was installing and he was informed by them that whilst the Receiver does not have an area for underfloor heating, as we were on a Combi Boiler we could fit it to the Hot Water (HW) section of the receiver and control it from there (as hot water is not used because of it being a Combi). That is true. However, you cannot use a wireless thermostat to control the hot water on or off. At first they thought we were wanting to control the temperature of the HW but that is not the case. We basically want it to switch itself off when the room is up to temperature (as the radiators have done for the last 10 months) and leave a frost control mechanism in place when we are away. When that was finally understood, we tried with them lots of different options around the wiring, controls within the thermostats themselves, the app and more!
So it turns out, all you can do on the app is turn the Hot Water on or off. However, to compound this, if you switch the Radiators on (and it does get cold upstairs sometimes!), they do not auto turn off anymore when room temperature is reached. Basically, the hot water being on overrides this so you have to manually switch off both the radiators and the hot water and then switch the hot water back on. So effectively the thermostats have been rendered useless and the app has become an elaborate on/off switch.
Tado's solution is to scrap the system and purchase a Tado X (with no discount) having two receivers (one for the radiators, one for the hot water) and two thermostats which will work off the single app. The cost for this is £330. Having spent £300 on the initial system 10 months ago, you can understand our frustration.
Our alternative is just to leave Tado on the radiators and put the Underfloor heating onto its own sepearate manual system - but that completely goes against what we we wanted which is a nice simple system on one app that we can control from anywhere with frost control.
0 -
I think the choice not to get the separate thermostat is maybe what has killed the idea here.
We have a similar setup, only difference is that the UFH had its own manual thermostat on the wall originally and was controlled separate to the radiators. When installing Tado it was as simple as removing the old thermostat off the wall and putting the Tado smart thermostat in its place (following the simple re-wiring instructions). We can now control the temperature and ask the boiler to come on/off independently from the radiators.
0 -
Now I understand why your blood pressure is rising…
The first most important question that needs to be addressed is whether the UFH team, in their calculations, concluded that the max thermal demand for the combined UFH and radiator circuit would be within the reach of the boiler without difficulty. You need to get a written answer to that question because they have a legal liability if it isnt- and they know that.
Now assuming the boiler is capable, I suspect that the Ideal (I presume that is the real brand) boiler is being fired in digital control mode and believe that Tado are trying to organise two logical heating zones and still operate the boiler in digital mode. Personally I dont see why the transfer to X is required. There is a need for more Tado kit to be installed…
Would you confirm that your installers fitted the UFH system in this way, and identify what didnt happen?
- They split the central heating into two zones, with two zone valves, one dedicated to the radiator circuit, one for the UFH
- They may have fitted smart TRVs onto the radiators to trigger the wireless receiver for the radiator circuit
- When they fitted the underfloor manifold, it had a dedicated pump, serving the UFH zone with a built in blending valve to ensure the loops were at the right temperature:
- The UFH wiring centre for the underfloor manifold served as the logical zone controller for the UFH zone
- The UFH manifold wiring centre also opened the UFH zone valve when it needed heat and closed it when it didnt
- They fitted Tado wired thermostats as the controlling points for each logical UFH ground floor "room". It is likely that these were fitted close to the manifold, out of sight.
- They fitting Tado wireless wall sensors in the UFH warmed rooms, and married each wireless sensor to a specific wired wired thermostat, one by one, so that each wired thermostat received its instructions from its counterpart [client] wireless thermostat(s), and together these controlled the manifold as needed.
With this logic:
- The wireless receiver would then work as the coordinating point for all calls for heat on the CH side and its HW side would NOT be engaged. Its only role would be to wake up the boiler and coordinate demand and throttle up heat based upon the combined call from all the thermostats.
- The wired thermostats would control zone valves and underfloor heating loops.
- At the top of the tree the wireless thermostats would control the wired thermostats.
- The App would still have digital throttle control over the boiler, the underfloor heating would have a dedicated flow, the hot water tap circuit would be unaffected, the radiator loop would have its own settings.
There's probsbly a glitch you faced which I dont yet perceive. @Bircho Where did their approach differ?
@davidlyall @wateroakley am I missing something here?
1 - They split the central heating into two zones, with two zone valves, one dedicated to the radiator circuit, one for the UFH
-
Thanks again for the replies. I will pass on to the UFH installer what you have said and let you know what he comes back with.
Just with regards the boiler there is no issue. Told what we could heat a small hotel and we are not quite that (although a couple of kids might think so!).
The replies so far have been far far far more helpful than any of the Tado ones, and their customer service is really apalling with all they are wanting to do is sell the upgraded kit and at the end some rather blunt pointing in the direction of "helping us improve".
So thanks again and I will let you know what the installer comes back with.
0 -
Whilst we are waiting. Would you take photos of the ufh manifolds, and their wiring centres and post them here? If you use a laptop browser to post it is easy. Not so from a phone.0
-
Had this back from the underfloor installer:
Are you saying that it will work if you have a wired thermostat per wirless one (I guess acting as a wait for it relay? (appears backwards!!). Is that when there is a spare one in the receiver?
The underfloor heating is classed as a single zone (only needs a switch live receive receiver not a multi zone wiring centre).
Could you confirm this drawing and that a receiver will work alongside a stand alone thermostat.
0 -
this is the underfloor heating set up ……
0 -
And the receiver wiring
0 -
From that picture of your manifold, it suggests that there are no electrical actuators to switch open the loops, and thus no wiring centre associated with it.
On this basis, from the drawing your UFH installer has given, this seems to be the logic
- Your boiler is being driven in dumb on-off relay mode.
- All power to the boiler and the zone valve for the Radiator Loop is fired by the wireless centre switching live, itself instructed by
- Either the Tado wireless sensor, presumably located somewhere upstairs.
- Or a Tado wired thermostat located close to the zone valve driving the UFH directly, which itself receives instructions from another Tado wireless sensor placed somewhere downstairs.
- The App is configured to ensure that the Wired Thermostat is properly paired with the wireless sensor.
What now needs to happen is the logic needs to be tested.
- Prove that Wired Thermostat does force the zone valve open for the UFH areas.
- Prove that its paired Wireless thermostat does instruct it to fire the boiler and open the UFH areas.
- Prove that the wireless sensor in the radiator area forces the wireless receiver to fire the boiler.
That should help you identify where the logic has failed and your installer should have support from Tado to address the breakdown in the logic.
EDIT. Forgot to respond to your installer. Here are my thoughts:
You have two zone controllers.
- First is the wireless receiver talking to the Radiator zone valve, also triggering the boiler, which is initially correct.
- This also powers the boiler's primary CH pump at the same time. Does it?
- The second is the Tado wired thermostat, which is triggered by the Tado wireless sensor. It also sends a trigger wire to the boiler.
- I assume it triggers the UFH pump and also the boiler's base CH pump. Does it?
- What mode is that pump set to? Is it differential pressure? Presume the loops been purged of air..
- The installers must ensure that the UFH zone valve switched live wire does not loop back via the boiler's switched live back to force the radiator zone valve open. This isnt a big deal to address, just need to ensure the switched lives head to and from the correct sides of the zone valves. Is that confirmed?
Another thing. Which Ideal model of boiler are you using exactly?
Hope this helps.
@davidlyall - have I got this right? I've not paired a wireless sensor to a wired thermostat myself for eight years, so dont remember the sequence - and am worried about the trigger wiring through those zone valves.
0 -
@policywonk - At the moment we do not have any wired Theromostats, just two wireless which is what we were originally told we needed. £90 is better than £330 if I need one for the UFH, is this what you are suggesting?
Boiler is a Logic Max Combi C35
0 -
They can be had for much less then £90. eBay always has loads and will work fine. Also some energy suppliers give big discounts on Tado, for example I think Octopus do it for £60
0 -
On Tado website a wired thermostat is £122. Octopus give you 30% off.0
-
@policywonk this is what UFH installer has replied with. He has sent a colour diagram but need to log on PC to upload it which I will do later today:
A two port valve is wired to the switch live on the receiver which opens the valve on demand as the valve opens it creates a contact within the valve in a second switch ( permanent live & switch live ) which is the signal back to the boiler to fire 🔥. If there is no demand from the receiver then the valve can not be opened. Thus neither valve can be opened by the other . Pump has no relevance to anything we are trying to achieve its fired up be the same switch live as the 2 port valve and comes off/on in the same way.0 -
@Bircho
Hi. Your UFH installer understood my point and thats all that counts, please thank him for me. Dont need the colour diagram, just need him to ensure that when one zone wakes up the other one is not forced to wake up without cause.
I agree with @adzyp they are cheap and cheerful on Ebay - the Octopus offer looks good.
Please ask your UFH installer to hang on till Monday, I need to check something else out. Please bear with me. @wateroakley has been around the block longer than I on this.
@wateroakley hope you are around - would appreciate your input - this weekend if possible. Whats your view on this? Please study this thread and my latest thoughts.
This boiler - an Ideal Logic Max Combi C35 is an Opentherm compatible Combi bit of recent kit, (see this link LOGIC-MAX-COMBI-IE-Installation-Servicing-Manual-260723.pdf - look at pages 32-34) - with seemingly simple wiring to get it working. It seems to me that there are two questions to be answered.
- Technically this should be supported in Opentherm mode, but we dont know whether the V3+ series or X series supports that Opentherm version. My searches cannot seem to confirm it. So if you agree, am aiming bring @Emcee in on this one.
- This brings us to the second question. The wireless receiver being used here is, one presumes, a UK version, which IIRC doesnt support Opentherm.
I believe therefore @Bircho has two options:
- Purchase another Smart Wired Thermostat for now to fix his problem and run the thermostats and the wireless receiver in relay mode - and get his home warm for winter!
- Or swap, if he can get it handled swiftly enough, to running two Smart wired thermostats as zone controllers, with smart wireless sensors acting as the sensing point; then consider migrating the wiring so that the zone valves are triggered using a UFH wiring centre which can handle the triggers using low voltage.
I dont want to create another drama for @Bircho.
0 -
@Bircho @policywonk Thanks for the 'ping'. I'll take a look over the weekend (no promises on the answers). KR W
0 -
Hello all,
Just to confirm @policywonk 's question above, tado° X supports relay and OpenTherm, but not eBus.0 -
This is the coloured diargram the the UFH installer supplied
0 -
The version of the Tado Pro App I can access does not declare a position for the Ideal Logic Max Combi C35, operating in Opentherm. Would you please clarify with the Tado techs if moving @Bircho to Opentherm with the following configuration would work and be effective:
- That specific boiler is wired to an EU Wireless receiver or an old UK (BP series) wireless receiver,
- With two Tado smart wired thermostats:
- One opening the main radiator zone valve using relay mode including the primary CH pump
- Another triggering the UFH zone valve using relay mode and its UFH CH pump
- With wireless room sensors installed mated with the wired thermostats handling the respective zones.
- With the existing wiring centres left in place.
- This would mean removing the existing wireless receiver.
My concern is that @Bircho was somehow not aware that his boiler could run in Openthem mode - and he needs to be made aware that this efficiency option needs to be considered - given that he has made a significant investment in UFH and therefore efficiency in that boiler will need to be maximised. He needs to make a decision this time with all the facts - and yes, he may consider replacing it all for X, but he may prefer to reduce waste in having to replace so many V3 components.
0 -
Since @Bircho already has a chat open with Nathaniel, he would be better served by asking him directly about the outline you've provided @policywonk
0 -
OK @Bircho. Admin has spoken. It may be time to talk to the geek from support and get his recommendations. Do pass on my recommendations. Might help if you email Nathaniel a link to this thread. If you are still not convinced after receiving his reponse, come back.
There are two steps in this process, each requiring one change.
- By using wireless sensors at the front end, married to the wired thermostats at the back end, the zone valves should work. This can be proven with your boiler running in RELAY mode - which is how it is currently configured.
- Now your boiler can run more efficiently, Opentherm independently verified published data suggests that hot water and central heating costs can be lowered by at least 8% per annum, but more likely 11-21%. Am still studying the data myself. Your boiler can be run in that mode and Tado does support it, but that wireless receiver would need to be changed. Your options are:
- Buy a second hand BP series Tado receiver. A few on Ebay.
- Ask Tado for a solution to replace it, it may involve installing another Smart Thermostat and reconfiguring all the relationships. They should provide a complete guide and I would suggest you get an electrician (perhaps from your UFH specialist) to handle that.
I may be offline for a few days, but will check this thread next week. Hope this helps.
@wateroakley Hey, found myself using your signature 😅
0 -
Nathaniel shut my chat down and advised me to come on here. Does anyone remember the catchphrase from the old tv programme "Soap".0
-
@Emcee thank you.
@davidlyall @wateroakley. I will be offline for the next week, could you keep an eye on this one?
0
