Radiator Thermostats out of Range
Answers
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Just had to comment on this thread because a fair bit of misinformation on the antennas.
The Inverted F antenna that is being modded in this thread is not in use.
It is certainly a 2.4ghz antenna and not for 868mhz, in the pictures by wandal and solbadguy2010 it is obvious that the 2.4ghz is not being used - the supporting components nearby are unpopulated - in fact on that modded board the modded antenna is not even connected to anything.
The helix antenna at the end of the board is the correct one that is being used.
here is the datasheet for the 868mhz antenna
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra416/swra416.pdf?ts=1654777120049
here is the datasheet for a potentially better design
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra227e/swra227e.pdf?ts=1654691079436
it also could be possible to increase the output power of the chip itself - the radio chip uses SPI for setting the output power https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cc110l.pdf?ts=1654777792616
Either way, it's all great upgrading the bridge antenna but it could equally be problems with the device antennas
I don't think these devices can/will ever "mesh", but being able to add another bridge should be a relativly easy software "fix" if tado really wanted to sort this.
This version that was posted by solbadguy2010 (which does have chips to support the 2.4ghz antenna) and has a sort-of-UFL connector (see https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/88041/what-connector-is-similar-to-u-fl-but-has-no-pin)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6031070/uploads/RETH2EGLIE8N/img-3078.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6031070/uploads/Y6G49TXB4YU2/img-3077.jpeg
Anyway, if you buy a 50ohm 868mhz antenna and adapter such as these and then you will need to modify the PCB slightly to use the external antenna and that should work a lot better than the built-in antenna
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repeater needed…. Or multiple bridges on the same account… or multiple houses/nickname without logout…. And please make the bridge able to connect to the router through WiFi (not only via Lan).
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Same problem here - terrible signal, whatever the position of the internet bridge: many tado SRTs complete out of range; a number intermittently in range; some in range. Battery life correspondingly terrible (under 4-6 months), I assume as the SRTs are desperately trying to connect to the bridge.
This is in a largish (c. 300m2), L shaped single story home - most of the internal walls being partition rather than masonry. Wifi coverage throughout.
The irony is that tado is a system particularly desirable in larger properties, and yet the range limitation prohibits that.
As evidenced by this thread, this has been drawn to tado's attention since at least 2017 by multiple users, yet no signs of a fix (many ways this could be implemented, but they seem to have no will ...).
Looks like I'll have to jump ship, having invested c. £2k in the system, further ££ on heating engineers (as frustrated with it as I am!) and countless hours dealing with "support".
Assuming there isn't another solution (e.g. third party repeater - I've not turned up anything so far which is sure to work with their protocols), does anyone else offer a similar product, but with acceptable/extendable range (e.g. using mesh or repeaters)?
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robjampar - You mention PCB modification. I'm not sure what's required, but I'm pretty sure that modifying the internet bridge myself with a larger antenna is beyond me. However, I'd be up for trying it if I could find someone willing to do it ... presumably it's worth a shot!
Any thoughts on who to go to for this?
The other suggestion has been some kind of signal booster/repeater - I don't know how feasible that is, as even if it a IPv6 enabled “6LoWPAN”, is there a chance it might be using some kind of bespoke protocol which a repeater would need to be primed for?
Any other solutions welcome. I'm toying with a second bridge, etc, which could operate a second central heating (CH) zone (on a separate valve). The problem then is presumably (I think) you'd need two separate phones ... (?) so each person who operates the geo-fencing would need to to have two phones with when leaving the house, which isn't a practical solution. My other option is to install a spare Nest system for CH zone 2 (which is where most of the reception issue are), and either abandon SRVs in those zones entirely (suboptimal), or use ones other than tado that can speak to Nest ...
Thoughts welcome ... !
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As far as I know nest doesn’t do trvs, nor are any directly compatible. You could try going the weather compensation route and abandoning trvs altogether.0
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Looking at a Tado circuit boards teardowns online the thermostat has a bluetooth chip and 2.4ghz antenna which is probably connected in some way to the unused 2.4ghz antenna in the V3 bridge. So as @robjampar stated soldering a cable on that antenna will do nothing. I have a thermostat in a garden room 15m from the house so no chance in working. I am familiar with surface mount soldering so I am going to attempt to mod the helix antenna with a rp sma connector to an external antenna. I would like to put a question to @robjampar if he can shed any light on if the connection to the original PCB antenna should be broken or can an external antenna be added in parallel.
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I just spent a significant amount on Tado, including 14 TRVs. 4 of them, at opposite sides of the house don't have a stable connection, or none at all. Reading this thread doesn't give me much hope. Is there a place where we can 'vote' to push this topic higher on the priority list at Tado?
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I bought these last year and have 2 of 11 TRVs out of range. Now that it's winter again and checking to see if the problem is resolved and still nothing. I think it's quite easy for the company to ignore us on their community message board so I'm going to @ them on Twitter and suggest you all do the same.
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Following up on the post from @robjampar, I believe I was able to locate the specific parts used on my bridge PCB:
The connector appears to be a "Microwave Coaxial Connectors with Switch SWF Type", possibly made by Murata with piece number MM8130-2600: https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/MM8130-2600?
After some more research I managed to find this probe (cable): "Measurement Probe for MM8130-2600/MM8430-2610 (P/N: MXHS83QE3000)": https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/81-MXHS83QE3000
I also picked an (appropriate?) antenna: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/538-216196-0001
After having those two parts shipped from the US, I connected them up to my Tado bridge - which seemed to have worked fine, mechanically at least:
However, after some initial excitement, it turned out that this doesn't help at all. The reception was even notably worse with the probe and antenna connected than without...
Any insights/more ideas from electronics experts?
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A very crude solution with a £20 868Mhz aerial from Amazon by LoRa Gateway. The Bridge is mounted upside down with the USB tail 34 cm vertical and the aerial is tie wrapped to the Bridge just above the metal shroud to give a crude inductive coupling. Worked for 48 hours and no drop out. See picture for details.
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Nice job @Vernon .
Is your wife ok with this?1 -
Pete In my study and it now works so will after a period of trials be moved some where more appropiate! I was never going to crawl aroung the attic to get it working.
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After trying to improve the antenna on the bridge and failing, I've now turned my attention to the room devices. So far with good results.
So far I have modified the antenna on a Tado wall stat and Tado Radiator Stat (details below).
See picture below.
Procedure...
1. Remove batteries from radiator stat
2. Insert small flat head screw driver between circular setting control and top cover (one with the temp sensor hole in)
3. PCB based antenna is visible, identify the end of the antenna (the back has diagonal connectors which electrically connect the parallel sections of the antenna). I added the new antenna to the end of the old one in case anything goes wrong I have best chance of not damaging the existing antenna.
4. Scratch off the green plastic coating to reveal some copper of the antenna.
5. Solder a small wire (I used 10cm but this will probably benefit from being optimised in length) to the end of the PCB antenna.
6. Feel the wire through the temp hole in the cover and replace the cover (might need a bit of the underside plastic nibbling off to accommodate the new wire.
7. Replace the batteries and refit on radiator.
Enjoy your new improved signal!1 -
@Vernon , could you provide a link to the aerial you used and also an update as to whether it's still working in a week or so (once it's positioned in it's final resting place?0
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The link is https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09997J4DK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I will leave this for probably a few weeks to be sure and then move it to a cupboard three feet to the right in the same position
Still working and I have two boilers, two wireless Temp Sensors and 24 smart stats. One of which fell off very quickly as there is a lot of metall near it and I had to connect a few feet away.
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Well worked for over 10 days now. I am told by my wife it is not broke so don't fix it especially in cold weather. I have made it tidy and will reconside moving it in late spring. The white cables, aerial and cable ties which now blend in with the white window frame. Not invisible but acceptable to all.
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think i've got the same range issue.
bought 3 pack of smart TRVs - first 1 installed worked fine (TRV in same room as bridge)
went to install the next one which is at the further point away from the bridge (it's only a 2 bed flat though so not a huge distance but all the internal walls are solid brick), and looks like it's not able to connect to the bridge, brought the TRV into the same room as the bridge to get it paired and it paired up, took it back thru to the room to install on the rad and even though the tado app still said "connected" it didn't seem to respond to any temp change requests.
bridge is in "bedroom 2" which is the office and where all the network kit is. TRV is in "bedroom 1".
the image below shows the room layout, red marks are the rads, blue mark is the network kit where the bridge is.
so what am i supposed to do here? moving the bridge isn't feasible, and tado don't have anything to extend bridge coverage, so what's Tados solution to this?
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Hi,
You definitely need to move the Bridge to somewhere in the middle of the flat. The Lounge, bottom right, to the right of the door could be a good spot?
The Bridge only needs an ethernet connection to the internet, and power through USB of course.
To test out a location you could use a long ethernet cable from your router to where you want the Bridge to be to see if it will work.
Once your happy with the spot where the Bridge can control all of your TRVs then you can either fix the cable in place or use some kind of WiFi wireless extender that you can plug the Bridge into with a short Ethernet cable.
I've used mains power wifi extenders in the past that worked well for me.
Cheers, Keith
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the image is missing the location of the wireless room stat (which is to the right of the door in the living room.
tado should be using a mesh system so their devices communicate with each other if no direct connection to the bridge is possible.
having to but yet more equipment just to facilitate the poor design of the Tado kit is unattractive, considering i had to spend £200 to get 3 x smart TRVs (on top of all the other kit).
the other problem is that that tado app thinks the TRV is "connected", but no command gets sent to it from the app (or from homekit), and the "blink display" button doesn't activate the TRV.
shouldn't the tado app say "disconnected" if it can't see the TRV? and i've got the "red spanner" icon next to it in the app, but when viewing the device it show's no issues that would fixing.
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Hi @Vernon
Great that it's working out. I purchased the antenna from your link and tried on mine in a few positions. Unfortunately I couldn't get it to improve the signal.
Signal got worse in every case. I guess it's changing the signal in someway which happens to suit your setup. So I'm returning mine to Amazon.
I just soldered another bit of wire onto the bridge (after some success on the room devices). Hopefully this will solve my remaining issues.
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Hi Pete
It is a crude fix. Sorry it does not work for you.
I assume you took the internet connection up and well away from the aerial and USB lead. Mine go up the window across the window top and down the left side vertical. The right side vertical is the Internet Bridge, upside down, the USB cable34cm long and the aerial
Best
Vernon
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Hey lads, especially @Pete,
how has the soldered wire solution been working out so far? Still up & running?
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Soldered wire to extend antenna of the radiator stats worked well and made a significant difference for me.1
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As, frustratingly and disappointingly, tado doesn't seem to be doing anything about these, despite repeated requests over years, and as I'm currently heavily invested in tado hardware (23 devices) and the only meaningful solution they've dangled is releasing new improved hardware, rather than range boosting/supporting a second bridge/mesh radio network, etc, I'm keen to find a way of making my current hardware work. Alas, I'm not handy with a soldering iron. However, having dug around the forum I thought I'd add what I've found, which might work, to this thread.
Not sure if anyone else has tried this, but:
(i) for those needing to extend horizontal range only (e.g. in a bungalow/on one floor only), one user reported that positioning the internet bridge horizontally improved things.
(ii) A second internet bridge may help. See here https://tado.vanillacommunities.com/en-gb/discussion/17057/range-limitation-publicity I've extracted the key advice (from another user, David F) with thanks below:
"This year I decided I was going to fix this no matter how much faff so I bought a new internet bridge and installed it in one half of the house moving the other to be more central in the the other half of the house. I was planning to introduce a second zone in my house to operate it as two houses. I knew there were app limitations but I planned to have my phone do one and my iPad do the other, my wife phone would do the second and her iPad do the one my phone did but then I discovered the geofencing problems - sigh.
Any way I had my second system and for geofencing reasons I decided to move all of the radiators I could access back onto the original system leaving just one on the new account without geofencing control. Then I realised that I had moved the internet bridge but all these other radiators were still accessing fine. So I moved also the most troublesome radiator over to the old system and what do you know - its been rock steady ever since.
So how does this work. I've tried to verify this but I think several of the radiators are accessing through the internet bridge on my second account but are included in the control of the first account. This means, I think, that range can be solved just by adding bridges on new accounts and adding radiators to that account through that bridge and then adding those radiators into the active account leaving just the bridge in these new accounts.
Other than that I can only believe Tado have invented a massive improvement to their range in the last month or so."
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I've had sooooo many false dawns with Tado.
Things can go for weeks perfectly, then weeks dropping out.
Find someone to do the soldering when the drop outs resume!1 -
Is there any update on the second bridge / account and then transferring the TRVs back solution? Would be far far preferable to soldering…
Also - the passive repeater seems like a good possible solution.0
